Wading through shipping permits

Have you seen interesting snail related news items? Or looking for what is being published about snails?

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Postby badflash on Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:11 am

Agencies like the USDA respond only to congressional pressure. They could care less about what we want or think. The way that presiidents have dealt with agencies like the EPA, OHSA, Border partol, etc. is to cut their money. Once they have no money for enforcement, guess what?

I find it hard to believe that Canas would ever pose a real threat to the US rice crop, except for organically grown rice. The slightest use of pesticide (and for farmers there is no such thing as slight use), the canas are dead. Other snails require such high water purity, that the water quality of a rice paddy would kill them.

This is just typical over-reaction to a non-problem. A congressman or senator in a rice producing state had a large contributor lean on them about snails, and they in turn leaned on the USDA. Being the good lapdogs they are, guess what?

I can see how under the right conditions that canas could be a problem, but in the USA, where do those conditions exist? In their economic justification the USDA use potential threat, not real damage for justification. Using that argument they can get rid of just about any animal on the planet. Most other would be protected by some other agency or organization, but who champions snails?
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Postby pbgroupie on Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:49 am

These are not new regulations per se, they are enforcements of regulations that were already in place. As to which states have rice crops and are being protected the most you may read this article. North Carolina is not mentioned, but I was told by aphis that they do have a test crop of rice there as well.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 6-3297.htm

As far as the clutches of said animals, you have to mark on your permit applications what the stage(s) are of the animals you will be shipping. Eggs usually mean hatchlings>juveniles>adults>more clutches=a no no. So no cannas in any form except deceased or for research which will conclude with the death of said specimen are allowed to be transported.

I spent hours yesterday on the USDA/aphis web site looking for plain language that says cannas are illegal in the US. The only published articles were about the GALS (giant african land snails) however, they did list the following:

Q. Are there any snails specifically prohibited by the USDA for interstate movement or importation into the United States?
A. Achatina fulica (Giant African Snail), Pomacea canaliculata (Channeled or Golden Apple Snail), Rumina decollata (Decollate Snail) are banned for interstate movement or import into the United States.



I got that from this link:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/p ... slugs.html

which came from clicking this link:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/p ... slugs.html

Hope that helps a bit.
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Postby Macgen02 on Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:06 pm

PB, when you applied for your permits what life stages did you apply for? The way I read the regulation the brigs needed to be 1.4 inches. I'm just curious if they will allow permits for the pea-dime sized that people normally ship, as well as clutches.
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Postby plecoperson on Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:36 pm

I faxed my applications for NY and WY yesterday. This AM I got a call from Dr Swallow to inform me that the fax didn't go through right and to try again. I was pretty flabbergasted that A) someone noticed B) someone called me C) she was really nice and helpful.

I put "adult/egg" on the apps. All she asked me about the permits was whether I was selling them to a pet shop. I just told her it was to other hobbiests and she said "OK!" So far, so good.
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Postby plecoperson on Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:37 pm

Oh, and doing multiple-state permits is not such a pain; you can fill out everything but the state, make multiple copies, fill in just the state on each copy, and fax the whole wad if you're not doing the e-filing. My nearest USDA ofc is an hour and a half away, so I decided to do it the slower way.
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Postby pbgroupie on Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:47 pm

Dr. Swallow is who I'm talking to as well. Isn't she nice? Very friendly and understanding and quite willing to answer all of your questions. She's calling not too far away from where I live. I put down eggs, juveniles, and adults on my applications. We'll see if they approve them.
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Postby plecoperson on Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:57 pm

She really is nice-I completely did not expect the USDA as a whole, or any individual there, to actually care about pet snail shipping. I am really impressed.
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Postby Macgen02 on Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:56 pm

I stopped into my favorite LFS today. I noticed they'd gotten new brigs and marisas since I'd been in last week. It was pretty slow so I had a chance to chat with the owner. His fish and snails come from Chicago, so they are shipped within the state. He's had no problems with brigs or marisas, but canas are "outlawed." I told him about what I'd read here and he said USDA was there at the beginning of June, but they were more worried about his big pet parrot wandering around the store LOL! Chaz is pretty outgoing and hates to be ignored. They checked his snail tank and asked about canas and left. He's still willing to take my babies *if* I ever get any so I'm happy about that.
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Postby pbgroupie on Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:27 pm

Today I received the first batch of the Applicant Review Conditions forms for the PPQ 526 Permits to approve. The Authorization Statement says:

This permit authorizes (my name, address), to commercially move the identified aquatic snails, Pomacea Bridgesii, from Maryland to (state I applied for) for ultimate retail sales to the general public. The listed snails occur in the environment of the State to which this permit authorizes movement. Although not considered plant pests, the snails are considered to be regulated articles to prevent shipments from being contaminated with plant-feeding snails that are pest species.

Then I had to agree with the following conditions:

1. Shipments must not be contaminated with other species of snails, especially plant-feeding snails like Pomacea canaliculata. Contamination of any shipment with plant-feeding snails is a violation of this permit. (Does that mean I can only ship bridgs by themselves--not with spixi or any other snails?)

2. The permit holder must ship snails in escape-proof containers.

3. The facility rearing or holding snails for shipment under this permit is subject to inspection at any time by APHIS PPQ and/or State regulatory officials during normal business hours to confirm the identity and taxonomic purity of organisms being produced for shipment under this permit. Business facilities receiving these snails are also subject to inspection during normal business hours to confirm identity and purity of organisms received. (Sure, come on by and I'll give you some coffee while you search!)

4. The permit holder must keep shipping records for at least two years of all retail establishments (names and addresses) receiving these shipments. The records must be made available to Federal and/or recipient State officials upon offical request. (So I guess if I'm selling to a private individual and not a retail establishment then I don't need to keep a record?)

5. The permit holder must provide a copy of this permit with the conditions to each commercial establishment receiving snails under this permit. Each establishment must maintain a copy of this permit in its files. Invoices for each shipment of snails must include the USDA APHIS PPQ permit number that authorizes such movement.

6. The permit holder must include a statement in each shipment warning the receiver that they must take precautions to prevent any intentional, subsequent commercial interstate movements of the snails unless so authorized by another Federal permit. (Uh, okay, do you have something in writing that I am supposed to use?)

7. This permit cannot be transferred or reassigned to other parties.

8. This permit does not relieve the applicant of the responsibility for complying with other Federal or State requirements, especially those that pertain to the movement of snails as intermediary hosts of animal or human parasites.

9. Under the Plant Protection Act, individuals or corporations who fail to comply with these conditions and authorizations, or who forge, counterfeit or deface permits or shipping labels may receive civil or criminal penalties, and may have all current permits cancelled and future permit applications denied.


Whew! Good thing I am a speed typer! :rofl: So, that's the latest hoop I had to jump through. I also applied for the balance of the states I hadn't applied for yet. So that ought to keep them busy for a bit! :wink:
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Postby wyofish on Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:38 pm

They are welcome to inspect my facilities....if they CAN get up there, and promise not to sue me if a step breaks on the way up....can I specify that I can't have anyone over 200 pounds inspecting my snail-rearing facilities?
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Postby inging13 on Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:54 pm

eeeks wyofish! sounds scary. surely your tanks must weigh more than 200lbs?

i can't believe this was happening and i didn't nkow about it! i also can't believe that something like usda regulations of SNAILS is making me want to cry!!! i am so sad that some irresponsible pet owners are ruining it for the rest of us, also, the irresponsible pet stores that don't care what happens to the animals as long as they make a buck. is that too cynical? i'm sure there are other factors, but if people took care of their pets the way they are supposed to, then this wouldn't be a problem, right?

i think that it just shows the bigger problems of our "throw away" society. I could go on and on about how we have to buy buy buy, bigger, better, quicker more, more, more...but only for like five minutes until the next best thing comes along. also, can people plan for the future at all? is it so hard to conceptualize that this snail might physically be able to fit into that 3x3 cube right now, but it will grow like any other living thing and its needs will change...

i hate people. mostly.

is this seriously a problem though? how hard to we work to keep our tanks the perfect environments for our snails...would they be able to survive out there? not in wisconsin!!!! why don't they just regulate commercial snail people, maybe even just in southern states.if someone (say, in wisconsin!) wants to keep a few canas and even wants to BREED ( :o ) a few babies, why bother me? ok, ok, i'll get a permit and i'll admit, maybe to be on the safe side i should only be allowed ship to northern states.

but seriously. snails?!?!?! search an old grandma 40 years from now because I mailed a cana to MINNESOTA, but let that serial child molester sit right next to a 6 year old on the same plane...

Grrrr.

and exactly what percentage of rodent feces does the usda allow in our meat? hurl.

am i totally off base?
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Postby badflash on Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:03 am

The USDA sees easy prey here. They can flex their muscles, feel powerful and important, and hit something that won't hit back. When they go after the meat packers, a senator shows up on their doorstep and the next thing you know there is a new head of the USDA. This is what happened to the INS when they tried to stop illegal workers.

Who's going to go to bat for pet snails?

From what I can see, they won't try to track down owners. They want to stop the distriibution. They think that if any are shipped from anywhere, they could end up in a pond someplace and cause trouble.
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Postby wyofish on Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:56 am

inging13 wrote:eeeks wyofish! sounds scary. surely your tanks must weigh more than 200lbs?



Oh yes, I'm sure pretty much all of my tanks are over 200 pounds apiece; the floor's fine, it's just the steps....they're those pull-down attic stairs, and a real nuisance. The upstairs is an excellent, quiet place for my critters though, and the only place in the house I have to myself as the SO exceeds the weight limit for the steps :D. To be on the safe side regarding water weight, though, I only have tanks around the edges of the room, and I can't have any multiple-tank stands that'd stack more than one over the same floor space. Still works great, though, leaves the middle of the room available for smaller things like my hatchery, live food cultures, and grow-out containers for betta babies.
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Postby wodesorel on Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:06 pm

Sorry to jump into this converstaion....

So are permits needed when sending snails to people for shipping only? Or is this something that is needed when selling to breeders/stores only. (And is this why Petsmart hasn't had ANY snails in 3 months?)

When I mailed eggs and a snail last month (completely unknowingly to places I think briggs are illegal- I never knew snails were illegal in some states until two weeks ago) - I told my postmistress exactly what was in the package and she saw where it was going to because she had to input info for Priority Packaging. She thought it was cool that snails could be mailed and not die, and didn't say anything about not being able to mail them - and this is the lady in charge of my city's branch - shouldn't she know all the regulations?

Oh, now I'm confused.
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Postby pbgroupie on Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:46 am

Basically, you need a shipping permit for all pomecea species. They are trying to prevent interstate shipping of all cannas. If you are shipping brigs, the permit gives you the legal right to ship them--whether you are doing it for profit or shipping costs, to another hobbiest, or to a commercial outlet. It is your promise to only ship what they haven't banned to the states that will accept them. And yes, that could be a very good reason why you haven't seen them in the LFS for awhile.

They want you to apply for a permit for any snails that you may ship, even if they eventually say that the threat of the species you are sending is "unfounded". You don't need a permit to ship within your own state. This is the USDA's way of trying to eliminate cannas in the United States--especially the threat to the states that grow rice.
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