I will have to surrender two snails tomorrow

Have you seen interesting snail related news items? Or looking for what is being published about snails?

Moderator: Board moderators

Postby Happy Clam on Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:06 pm

I'm going to try to stop crying long enough to share some more detail in case it can help others think about what they might do, or questions they may have, if faced with a similar situation.

I live in Maine, and as noted in another thread, the state laws here are particularly strict. No freshwater snail has ever been approved for sale in the state. There's a reverse burden of proof here, and unless a species of any pet has been specifically approved for sale in petstores, it is not allowed. In LFSs, there are no shrimp, no African dwarf frogs, no white cloud mountain minnows, no brigs, etc... Many things readily available elsewhere are not approved for sale here.

However, I think that the USDA is only concerned with federal law, and so I don't think that Maine's strict stance had very much impact on this particular situation. I couldn't, though, claim that I got these at a local flea market and that they had not crossed state lines. If I had them, my guilt there was obvious.

The shipment they had record of included more than the two marisas. There was also a cana, spixis and cherry shrimp, none of which should be in Maine according to state law. I told the rep from the USDA that the cana died. He made note of this. I did not have to produce a shell or answer any more questions about the cana.

He did not ask me any questions about the spixis or cherry shrimp. He did not ask me if I had received any other shipments he should be aware of.

He brought me the section of the Code of Federal regulations that gave him authority. (I'm sorry if this all sounds cold! I don't mean for it to, but I also think I'm now paranoid and don't want to say anything here that I could get in trouble for.)

It says-
The Channeled Apple Snail and the Columbian Snail are classified as plant pests, as per 7 CFR 330.200. No person shall knowingly move any plant pest... interstate, or knowingly accept delivery of any plant pest so moving unless such movement is authorized under permit... The movement of snails and slugs, as well as other plant pests, is governed by such provisions.

In the ID of pests section of the form, he listed:
Marisa cornuarietis
Pomacea canliculata

I had to sign and date a form. I'm quite sure I would have had a visit from him and would have had to sign this paper even if all of the snails had died.

Again, he asked no questions about the rest of the critters in the shipment.

I'm freaking out because he brought me a full package of educational materials on invasive species including magnets and stickers. He was a very young man who seemed like a decent person who was visibly moved by the fact that I couldn't stop crying.

But yes, those two snails are gone.

I sincerely hope this info can be helpul to others.

Very sad Clam
Happy Clam
Hatchling
Hatchling
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:52 pm

Postby Heidi on Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:03 pm

I am so sorry for your loss.

Heidi
Heidi
Parent snail
Parent snail
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:41 pm

Postby jonfr on Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:16 pm

I am sorry about your snails. But as I now understand the pest law in the U.S is really hard.
User avatar
jonfr
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:19 am
Location: Hvammstangi, Iceland

Postby Happy Clam on Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:17 pm

Thank you.
Happy Clam
Hatchling
Hatchling
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:52 pm

Postby Pollux on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:26 pm

:cry: did he say what would happen to them?
User avatar
Pollux
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 5:15 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Postby Happy Clam on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:34 pm

They will be destroyed. I sincerely hope it is humane, but I could not bear to ask.
Happy Clam
Hatchling
Hatchling
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:52 pm

Postby Pollux on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:38 pm

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
User avatar
Pollux
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 5:15 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Postby snailboom on Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:03 pm

Wait, you got the snails 9 months ago? Were the bans in effect 9 months ago?!
If you bite and ravage each other, watch out--in no time at all you will be annihilating each other, and where will your precious freedom be then? (The Message G. 5:15).
User avatar
snailboom
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 870
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:19 am
Location: NW suburbs of Chicago

Postby badflash on Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:27 pm

Good point, but probably way too late. Like I said before, dis-information is one of their best weapons. While the UDSA had the right to ban these snails, it wan't until April of 2006 that the announced their intension to enforce the rules. See:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-3297.htm


According to APHIS, your snails are not banned.
See
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/plantpest/faqs-import-snails_slugs.html

If anyone else runs into this, make them cite the regulation in writing that they are enforcing and demand that the specific species be listed. This may have been the USDA acting on the behalf of the state officials, and I'm not sure that is legal at all.

Something that would be usefull is for each person to check with their local department of agriculture and find out what animals are specifically prohibited from ownership and list it here along with your source for reference.
User avatar
badflash
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:46 am
Location: Wappingers Falls NY

Postby Pollux on Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:15 pm

so they were illegally confiscated?! what is going on?
User avatar
Pollux
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 5:15 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Postby badflash on Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:20 pm

Pollux wrote:so they were illegally confiscated?! what is going on?


This is the reason that the US Constitution specifically protects the rights to keep and bear arms. The Founding Fathers understood that the government could get carried away and their could come a time when armed resistance would be needed. I'm sure as heck not going to shoot a government bureaucrat over a snail, but what we have here is an agency run amuck and thinking that it has more powers than it does. There is a process and they are NOT following it. If they are going to ban a snail, they need to make it known that the snail is restricted and add it to their list. They also can not make shipping a snail without a permit retro-active and use that as an excuse to confiscate the snail.

In the US a state can pass a law against any animal it wants. So can the federal government, but the USDA can only control the shipment of these animals. If there was no shipping restrictions in place, and no current law against the animal in your state, then they have violated the law. Unfortunately, it sounds like the state of Maine (Maineacks again) don't want any critters from out of state, so if you were to fight the USDA, the state would get you, so it is a no-win situation. The USDA knows it can get away with it, so they do.

One last thing. If you ship a Brigs today without a permit (which you CAN get), they can take the snails and kill them legally. They can also fine you, but to date, all they have done is kill the snails.
User avatar
badflash
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:46 am
Location: Wappingers Falls NY

Postby lnb on Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:16 am

I gave away all my Marisa's a few months back. I picked over everything in the tank. None to be found of any size.

Now months later, guess what? I have 2 dime size marisa's hanging out in the very same tank!

Maybe you'll get lucky.

Lonnie :snail: ..... :snail: ..... :snail:
User avatar
lnb
Leading snail
Leading snail
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:27 am
Location: NYC

Postby Santaaa on Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:08 am

what everyone should do from now on is call them Ramshorn snails they look identical. For the sake of them not being destoryed. I do not currently possess any of those snails but am a snail lover. Brigs for me. just one. I am glad my brig is legal thank god. Anyways I just don't like animals being killed that do not need to be. Call the USDA about your case and see if they can do anything if you can prove the law did not take effect until after you got them and try and get them back it is worth a shot. Do NOT breed or distribute them. Destroy any clutches you may get and let them live out their lives as ramshorns. Remember if it looks like cat and meows like a cat it is most certainly a cat. If it looks like a ram and lives like a ram it most certainly is a ram. They would have a tough time proving it was not a ram.
Santaaa
Hatchling
Hatchling
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:01 am

Postby badflash on Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:26 pm

Calling them something else will only get Rams banned too. BTW, no snail of any type may be legally shipped without a permit, even RAMS. It looks like marisa/spixie crosses may get spixies banned too because the USDA can't tell them apart.

In this case a snail dealer that sold the snails to Happy Clam appears to have been busted and turned over the names & addresses of their customers. They knew what was shipped, so a name change probably wouldn't help.

I think the only thing that would help is to say they died. If you take this tactic, be sure to have some shellls of the right species to offer up, and be ready for an inspection. They would need to get a warrant to search your home without permission, but they sure can do that.
User avatar
badflash
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:46 am
Location: Wappingers Falls NY

Postby Pollux on Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:33 pm

a warrant to search for snails?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how rediculous.
User avatar
Pollux
Veteran snail
Veteran snail
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 5:15 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

PreviousNext

Return to (Apple) snails in the news

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron